#62 Michel O'Hare: Breaking the Cycle

Michel has lived through absolute hell and can smile on the other side of the abyss.

Her life's work is to facilitate healing and to guide people back to the knowingness of their own inner strength and to not just survive, but to live their lives fully.

Outline:

• What does it mean to live in absolute hell?
• At the time that you are experiencing this, what were some of the beliefs that you had about your life and why?
• The day she met her son’s father.
• Looking at the problem from different angles and different ways.
• What were some of the layers that came up when she was looking at it from different angles?
• What is body talk? What does it mean?
• What is EMDR? How does it work?
• Six sessions is a good time to feel like you’re getting a sense of who you are working with.

Website: https://www.bodytalkwithmichel.com/

Email: Michel@bodytalkwithmichel.com

Transcript

Jen: 0:00

Welcome back to the unbreakable boundaries podcast with your host, myself, Jennifer Maneely. I'm really excited about this upcoming guests, I met her, we were doing a red ribbon, Red Ribbon Week, Say that five times fast. At a local school, which was a really cool experience at a local school actually had me and this person come in and share our stories, which is kind of a little of an anomaly. Just because it's like a lot of schools, they don't really want people coming in and talking about drugs. But there's such a, like an epidemic of this, you know, addiction and substance abuse, and it's kids are getting younger and younger. So I think the school systems are starting to recognize that they got to do something. And so we were two guests, which I don't know, if you've ever walked into a high school, we were just talking to the high schoolers. And as an adult, to share your story. It's slightly intimidating, but we did it. And it was an awesome experience, she had such a great story. And we could just got to talk and I was like, Man, you really gotta come on my, my podcast, because I feel like she has so much to give and so much to share to you guys that I think can really, really help. So that's the conversation that we're gonna have today. And I just want to kind of read you a little bit her name, I just want to go ahead and say this before I forget, her name is Michelle hare. And she does some amazing work in in the space, even though it's not directly tied into substance abuse, it can but there's so much more going on with people than just substance abuse. And she helps in that space. So I'm just going to read a little bit about the profile that she sent me. And it says, I have lived through absolute hell and can smile on the other side of the Abyss, my life's work is to facilitate healing and to guide people back to the knowingness of their own inner strength, and to not just survive, but to live their lives fully. And this is something that I know a lot of my audience members really struggle with is not to just feel like they are surviving through their loved one substance abuse issues. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've gotten on with parents who literally just sit at home all the time, they've put their life on pause. They don't know what else to do. And they're just surviving through life. I'm like, are we just sitting around waiting to die? Or what? What are you going to do? They may never change? Is this what you want your life to look like? And so I love when I read this is not just to survive, but to live their lives fully. So Michelle, thank you so much for being willing to be on this podcast.

Michel: 3:05

Thank you for having me. Yeah. And

Jen: 3:09

so you have said in your first line, I have lived through absolute hell and can smile on the other side of the abyss. So when you say absolute hell, what does that mean? What did that hell look like?

Michel: 3:29

Growing up, it's like I learned all the things that you know, the the situation should be like, with a mom and a daughter, or even a family dynamics. You know, my mom was more like, competitive and with me and use me more like a crutch because her husband was physically and sexually and psychologically abusing me. And that was something that was like a everyday occurrence in my life. So with that just being said, so I was like, I don't know, just pretty twisted up, you know, for a really long time. And I ended up finally, like running away when I was 17. Because I just, I couldn't do it anymore. I stayed for a really long time because I was the oldest of six and the other five are kind of like, I don't know, kind of like my babies. So I just but I just I had to go and it almost seemed like things got worse when I left if you know if you can even imagine.

Jen: 4:34

Sure I well, I can't imagine that because it's like one I have to imagine this. These are some assumptions so you can fill in the gaps of your own experience but you left at 17 with very little actual healthy life skills involved.

Michel: 4:53

Or any smarts you know, any common sense or anything.

Jen: 4:57

Well, because well your whole life you know Were were the product a little bit of our environment, right? And so it doesn't sound and I can I'm making an assumption, but it doesn't sound like you were being taught any sort of way of actually, what does it mean to live in this world? There are no life skills being brought to the table, you didn't have a normal upbringing, even when you like went to high school and stuff. Because it's not like you're going home and like, your focus is on homework or something. It's, it's a little bit more toxic than that, right? So now you leave out of the home, and now you're in the big bad world with no life skills, no means to support yourself. And no, nothing. I can only imagine that things would could only from that standpoint, get worse. Yeah, but they didn't stay worse. So that's the good thing. I mean, you're here today. Talking to me means that the journey that was just the beginning of the journey, and the journey didn't end there. And eventually, you know, you, you did do something different. But when you left, when you left home at 17, and you say things seem to have gotten worse, what did that look like for you?

Michel: 6:17

Well, it's like when you're when you're living in a situation for a really long time. Even if it's like hell, it's like you don't really realize exactly what it is that you are living in, and, you know, in relation in for so many years, until you're on the outside, and all of a sudden you're like on the outside looking in. And it all seemed to kind of explode, like in my face. And because, you know, at 17, you're like, you're runaway. So I had to go from place to place at that time. And going through school, I was always like, dumped because I wasn't the one that was the sexy one. I wasn't giving it up or anything. And so when I went to one of the houses, that's where I was raped because I didn't do drugs or anything until I was in, you know, 17. And I tried weed. And so I was raised. And you know, it just kind of progressed from there with foster care. And eventually, I went to live with my dad and Mississippi. And yeah, that took on its own.

Jen: 7:29

Right, fair. So things got really not great for you. And so what what would you say in that time period, when things weren't really great? What was kind of like your bottom, what was the worst

Michel: 7:47

parts of that? Leave the worst parts were. Later when I was married to a sociopath, and that was, I had my first child, and he had abused me pretty bad. And he would like, yeah, he had a drug problem. And I remember I had double hernia surgery, and like, three days later, he was like, beat me up and dragging me across the trailer ground floor. And other times you would like take my kid and threatened to keep them from me. And I really twisted my brain and from there to, like, escape that horror that I was kind of felt like, trapped in. I went in the Army. And yeah, so I went in the Army, and the army was great on one hand, but it's like, if you've had like a lot of abuse and trauma, it's still really hard to have like drill sergeants and, and also like, people that are in charge, you know, think in your heart or something like that. It's a lot of pressure, you know, when you're just trying to, like, make a better life for you and your child. So when I got out of the military, I mean, not out of the military, but out of basic training and, and eventually schooling and got to my first duty station, I was a single mom with my my son. And it just at that point, that's when it just started, like, everything started to crack, you know, and within me, yeah, started to lose

Jen: 9:28

it. So, and this is something a lot of the families that I work with, you know, they didn't have a lot of them didn't have this kind of upbringing or this this background, right. Like, it wasn't, it didn't look like this, and they're like, that all sounds, you know, really traumatic, but how does this relate to me? And then they also question like, what their loved one experience CES and the horrible things that either they do or they're experiencing, they're like, well, we didn't, you know, raise you to be like this or behave like this. And yet they're doing a lot of the same things that it sounds like that you have experienced. So my question is, at the time that you are experiencing this, if you can remember, and you may not be able to, what were some of the, like, beliefs that you had about, like, your life? And why? Because this is the question that I get all the time. Why didn't you just leave? Or why didn't you just stop? Or why don't you just not do those things? And I think it's very complicated, right? I think that's a very complicated answer. It's not just, why don't you just not do those things. So like, some of the things that were was happening internally with you at that time.

Michel: 10:59

Ya know, it's really easy, you know, when you're a person who's like, not, you know, within that experience, to be able to say, you can do this and this because there's not the underlying belief systems, or the feelings and the things that are being shouted at you from within. And so, I grew up being told that I was never going to be anything that I was nothing that I was basically shipped. And I felt I was very unlovable. And growing up being molested, I also had a fear that I was going to become what I had experience. So that was a really big fear when I had my little boy, even though that that wasn't even possible, but to my very young, teenage mind. Yeah, so I didn't think that I had anywhere else to go. I didn't know what else to do. And so I had to eventually find enough courage to say I can join the military. And I can try this out. And so that was a huge leap in itself. But if you're like asking also about, like, when I'm a kid, that was that was interesting. It's like, I did reach out to people, it's just, my mother had a way of manipulating me into you're going to put us on the streets, you know, where you're gonna go to a place worse than you've ever, you know, experienced and that sort of thing. And so I didn't want to hurt my family, you know, right.

Jen: 12:44

Yeah. And I think you're hitting on something really important, because it's like, a lot of times, what, like, the families and the things that we're looking at, is what's right in front of us. Right. And we don't always get to know, all of the underlying stuff that's happening behind the scenes, all of the pirates that have been created the belief systems, and it's all that internal noise, right? So it's like, yeah, just because someone screams something at you, even though it's like from your parents, not everyone always takes that in, in the same way that it but sometimes, like, exactly, it's it, we don't always take that in the same way. But for some of us, we do start creating these belief systems around what we're hearing all the time and believing this is as good as it's ever going to be. This is your life. This wasn't like, you know, you were just doing what you knew how to do with the time that you knew how to do it, and use true believe anything else outside of, well, this must be what I either deserve, or what I get. Yeah. You know, and I think a lot of times when I'm talking to families, I have to remind them as like, there's so much stuff that's going on internally, that you don't get to know about, they may very well have a belief that this is what they deserve. Because maybe it came and I don't know, but maybe it came from they did something and they feel so bad about the thing that they did that they believe that they deserve to be punished for the rest of their life. And we'll never get any better than this. And when you're in that space, when you're in those moments, it can be really, really hard for us to believe anything else because it's not like we have the skills or the people around us. That is supporting healthy habits because the people around us are toxic. Yes. And they are continuing to perpetuate those belief systems in us because that's who we gravitate too. That's true, you know? And so it sounds like, there was a lot going on at that time period that it wasn't just like, Oh, I'm just gonna not live this way anymore. Like, what does that even look like?

Michel: 15:15

Yeah, that wasn't even an option.

Jen: 15:17

Right? It wasn't it didn't feel like an option at the time. And I think when you live in that kind of relationship and abuse, I think the concern also is, is, well, I can't leave. Because this is a dangerous person. You know, so I don't know if that was something that you you feared for? If what would happen if you tried to leave?

Michel: 15:42

Yeah, I had five younger brothers and sisters, it was, I felt like they would be like, four of them would be fine, because they were my stepdads biological children. But I had another sister, who was four years younger than me. And I just felt like her and my mom would get, you know, the brunt of whatever it was that I received, you know, when I left, which is exactly what happened. But I just wanted to do what I could, you know, at a young age like that, yeah. Which wasn't much, but you know,

Jen: 16:16

so, um, obviously, we didn't stay there, because that's not what your life looks like, anymore. Right. What do you think? Where do you think was the turning point for you?

Michel: 16:30

A turning point? Well, I think it was when I think I had the most absolutely horrible, horrible thing you could ever have, as a parent happened to me. And it was. So the son that I was talking about, I ended up I ended up losing him when I had like, a nice little dance with meth for about five years. And the thing is, is that you know, that his grandparents who were staying with, which is my ex husband, they kept him for me. And, but I did get to meet him. And so obviously, there's like, a lot to that, but I got to meet him. And he, he was so sick, he was so delusional, and the things that he was telling me about, like, and I was just sitting there, just witnessing this. And there. It was, it was God awful, you know, cuz it's like you, you see your kid and he's like, grown. And he's so tall. And I mean, last time I saw him is three. And he's got these big feet, and he's just beautiful. And, and then he's so sick. You know, we had schizophrenia. And you wanted to come and live with me. And I had three girls at the house at the time. One of them is my stepdaughter, because I was newly remarried. And God, I couldn't do it. That was like, the only thing I ever wanted was to have Skyler back and to be his mom, and to raise him and stuff. And it's like, at that moment, like, I always wanted him to ask me, Hey, can I come live with you? And now that like, we arrived at this place? I had to I had to fucking tell him. No. Yeah. And that was, that was the hardest thing. And he's like, later on, you know, he's like, Well, if you don't let me come live with you, so I'm going to kill myself. And I still couldn't do it. Because I knew that if he came that he would, he would be really toxic for the girls. And I just couldn't do that. And I thought maybe he was just making it up, you know, just manipulating me. And then, so from the day that I met him six months later, he killed himself. And that was, that's where I honestly would have to say that I was at my second lowest. And yeah, I would, I would get in the car. I would like try to put on that. That happy, you know, as happy as you can, but have it together to get the kids to school. And after I drop off the, the one in preschool, I would just drive around. I didn't know where I was going. I was like, I was lost. I was I was in a pretty dark pit of despair, to be theatrical.

Jen: 19:27

Well, and that's fair. This is like I think this is every parent's worst nightmare. I know a lot of the families that I talk with, they have these kids up there, and they do actually use this as a manipulation tool because they know that they can get what they want. If they just threatened suicide and sometimes they may meet it at the time, even though they might not actually, you know, go through with it or anything like that. They may feel the hopeless despair. And, you know, I, where I go with families is not in a mean way. But it's like how do we not let that impact the things that we know, are the right things to do right now. And so here's, here's a really hard question. I'm going to ask it. And we can just have that conversation. be uncomfortable, right? Yeah. But like, it makes me even uncomfortable thinking about asking it. But I really think it's an important question. Yeah. What did you do anything different? No. No? And I think that is, that answer is the most important answer that we can have when we do have someone. And we're confronted with something like this is being really grounded and owning the answer and why we're doing it. Despite the outcome. We don't get to control the outcome. Yeah, we don't, you know, whether it could have been so much, we don't know, what would have ever happened. We can't know. What would have happened. If you said yes. It could be a whole lot worse. Yeah. You know, there could have been things. You did it for the right reasons. And you made your decision for the safety of your house and for him, and he did not. Again, you know, this sounds uncomfortable. And I don't mean it to sound callous, but he didn't have to do what he did. He made a decision.

Michel: 21:55

That's true.

Jen: 21:57

And that was not our decision. It was not your decision to own right, he could have still have ended up that way. Whether you know, and then now you have your girls also involved in that. So it's so complicated. And I want to honor one you, and the pain that you must be experiencing, having to go through something like that, and to face every parent's worst nightmare nightmare out there. While also going i i don't, that was the best decision that I made. And I wouldn't change it. And how do we stay grounded in ourselves when something like that happens with no regrets? We may grief? We're going to, you know, feel as low as we can possibly feel. But then how do we still carry on? In in grief without blaming ourselves. And I think that's a powerful statement. You just made one that I'm so grateful that you said no, I wouldn't do anything different. It couldn't. You know, so kudos to you for that. Thank you. Probably the most powerful No, I've ever heard on this pot podcast, to be

Michel: 23:30

honest. No, I had to I had to look at it, you know, over and over, like from different angles, different layers and not hide from it. So I addressed all those different things that same question you asked me like I addressed it from different angles and looked at it in different ways, worded it in different ways, you know, just really making sure that I can get in there. And I guess you could say clean out the pipes, you know, that there's nothing like left over, that can sit there and trigger and run my life. So. So

Jen: 24:09

here's, I have to imagine and you can correct me if I'm wrong when he first asked you if he could come live with you. Yeah, I can't imagine that your first response was No. Like it was it didn't I mean, not response, but your immediate reaction was no, it sounds like something that may have been thought about. Am I correct in that? No.

Michel: 24:39

So yeah, you already

Jen: 24:42

knew the answer as soon as I

Michel: 24:44

did, and I hated the answer.

Jen: 24:47

Right. And had you had you already thought through your answer before you ask before before Right. Yeah, before he asked you had you saw through of, if he does ask, How am I going to respond? Had you already gone there with yourself?

Michel: 25:12

Well, my husband is very beautiful human being we were looking at, he says, Okay, maybe we could do this, you know, we can make a room this way, you know, just just trying to make the decision to where I could make a decision freely with, you know, with a little bit more clear view of it. And so I appreciated that from him, and that he was even willing to even you know, be open to that, you know, is pretty profound, but even looking at it, and seeing that, okay, he could stay here, we could do this, and you could get him on psych meds, and then you know, and then you go, and you look at reality. I have not raised him, and I need to be honest with you, you know, just a side note, you know, I was able to get him, you know, to stay on schizophrenia medicine for one month. But there was no, he's in Mississippi. So the voices are like, they're trying to change me, and it's just like, oh, boy, so, but I knew the reality of AI, most likely, he's gonna be 18 years old. And you know, 18 year old is going to be like, you know, fu you know, I do I do my own thing. You know what I mean? Yeah, you know, I just, I could see those scenarios coming. And then I also saw the children. And, you know, am she? How old was she, she's about 14. And she's pretty girl, you know, and Skylar is sexually active. And I was just like, I don't like that, you know, and the kids I want it I want them to be you know, is best in an environment that's uplifting and his energy and his you know, and that would be the older brothers, they would want to be like him, and lets, you know, oh, we finally get to meet you, you know, that sort of thing and would glorify whatever it was that he was carrying, you know, into our space. And I was like, Yeah, I wish it could be like that little fairy tale of, oh, everything's great. But yeah.

Jen: 27:28

So it sounds like there was a lot of thought that went into no and recommitting to the No. And go, it's really can't happen. Like, it's not good. And then when you so when you have an opportunity to look back and go, would I have done anything different? The answer can still be No, but I'm really fucking sad. Yeah, that this is the way that it went. Yeah, absolutely. But I have no regrets in the decision that I made. No, I don't. And that's powerful. And I think when I when I look at, and I call, you know, this podcasts and the conversations that we have the unbreakable boundaries. That's the testament to what I'm speaking about. Okay. When you look at creating something like that, the unbreakable boundaries, it's something that you are very clear. In your Yes. And you're very clear in your know, and you're very clear as to why. So that no matter what happens, we have no regrets. And we don't bend. Because we've been thoughtful. We've been proactive, we've been clear, we know exactly why we're making the decisions that we're making. And we don't regret those decisions. And we don't bend on those decisions. It doesn't mean that it's coming from, you know, not a loving place came from a very loving place, both for him, and for your other kids that you have in the house, your husband yourself. This was the best thing. And again, he didn't have to do what he did. And it's not really sad that he felt that hopeless, that that's Yeah. Yeah.

Michel: 29:29

And now you said you didn't

Jen: 29:35

raise him, necessarily, but you're married. You have three kids. He's reintroduced back into your life. That was a very low point. When that happened, you said that there was a lot of layers and you looked at it from a lot of different angles. Could you share just some have like, you don't have to go into all of it. But just some of the major points about what were all of the things you're considering and the different layers that you were looking at. And the questions maybe that you had for yourself. The thoughts that were coming up the beliefs that were underlying, in that, what were some of those things that came up?

Michel: 30:23

That was a failure. I failed at everything I did, and everything I touched, burnt to a crisp. So those were some of the belief systems. You know, if, if only I would have not chose drugs over my son, then maybe this wouldn't have happened. You know, if I could have raised him, maybe he wouldn't have been with such psychologically abusive people, you know, growing up, maybe things would have been better. I also had to look at the shame. The shame of not being able to provide my kid with a good upbringing, the shame of like, that was my that was like one of my biggest goals. Like when I was getting clean from drugs, I was like, I'm going to, I'm going to be his mother. And I'm going to do a great job. And that was like, that was my life goal right there. I was like, I'm gonna get them back, and I'm gonna be a great mom. And then it didn't get to happen. And so it was like, when he came back in my life, I was like, Oh, I get that chance. And it's like so it was just like, the shame of not really feeling like I had anything to offer when he came back into my life, which isn't true, because I did have lots to offer. It's just if you don't get that result of the expectations that you hold, then you feel like it's all a failure, and that everything's run dry. So expectations are why we suffer. So yeah. What else? Um the guilt of having to tell him no guilt of him feeling like he had no other option Yeah, is that good?

Jen: 32:35

Oh, yeah. That was great. No, that was really that was really, that was really powerful. And I think a lot of times a lot of the families that I you know, talk to and I work with, even if it's not the exact same questions in the way because they their experiences are different, right? So you know, put their situation but on the same core things of what you're speaking to the guilt, the shame, the failure newness, what did I do wrong? Where did I you know, all that stuff is all of the same that every every family every parent that I talked to all these things, it's it comes up, right? Where did I go wrong? If I could have done this different I still have to every now and then my mom has gotten so much better because we've done a lot of healing together every now and then she will still say something that she takes far too ownership too much ownership over my journey. And I know mother this was that was not yours to own. You know that was mind to own you're taking too much responsibility for something that's not yours. Now I'm not saying that we don't have our things so like, guilt, shame. And it sounds like because I kind of know a little bit more of like where you go now. It sounds like as much guilt shame the universal voices the fears, the self doubts, the beliefs you had those all of the same things but you didn't stay and live with those on a permanent basis. You looked at that and said have these things we're gonna have to go to some places inside to not continue to carry on and live in this kind of thing. So what I needed help what did that look like for you?

Michel: 34:50

So I felt like I was like on this like really dark downward spiral, you know, after just being with that news, and just the finality of it. You know, and so I broke down and was like, I'm gonna go get some therapy at the VA, you know, I knew that other things were available, but I wanted to use like my free stuff first, you know, it was just human stuff? Well, yeah. Try that out. And you know, I had I had therapists that would tell me that they were looking over the notes. And before they would see me, they were getting really, like nervous and depressed and stuff like that. And I was like, it wasn't like a place, I'm sure they can help other people. It's just, they couldn't hold that space for me. And so we have a friend me, my husband have a friend who is BodyTalk practitioner. And so I decided to start on that journey, which is consciousness based healthcare. And so it was like, after being like, in this like, really dark tunnel just to give visual to it. When I started doing Body Talk, it was like someone just like, open this window. And there was like light coming in. And someone just grabbed your hand and says, Here, you know, yeah. And it was, it was miraculous. And so

Jen: 36:18

can you kind of dive a little bit into when you say body talk? What, what does that look like? What does that mean? What do you do? Okay,

Michel: 36:28

so what do you know, right? So if anyone's ever heard about, like, Reiki or whatever, that's like energy medicine. So my, my husband refers to it, it's like, it's like Reiki on steroids. So basically, if a person comes in, whatever is your priority, will come up in consciousness as a formula. And it's like a mathematical formula. And your formula could have like, an active memory of, you know, something that happened at childhood. And you can also have emotions that need to be like released from certain places, and all these things like will, or if you have a different, like a hip, this hip, it needs to be in alignment with this other hip a little bit more, you know, oh, you know, my SP is kind of stuck. And a lot of times when people go through fear or startle, even at a young age, your SP will be stuck. And that'll, like, help you to stay like switched, where your thinking is cloudy and, and your, your, what you call your pituitary gland isn't working, so you're not getting all those hormonal releases. So anyway, this is like all coming in and items like in a formula. And so they have to figure themselves out in order to get the results. And so does that answer your question? Yes.

Jen: 37:51

So so I just kind of like I'm going to, I'm going to do my best to try to, to put this in words, okay, of what I think of how I understand it. So it sounds like for people who aren't like very familiar with this, right? When we get really tense, we can honor that. If someone puts their hands on our back. And we have really tight muscles. We're like, oh, yeah, I've been really tense, like I've been really stressed out. So we can, we can admit to ourselves that our body is holding on to tension in terms of creating stiff muscles in our back, what I hear you saying is, instead of just exploring, just the tenseness of the muscles in the back, we're actually going to go a little bit deeper, because we have other places in our body that are holding on to tensions that we may not be aware of at this present moment. And we're going to start exploring, so maybe, you know you have tension in your hip. Right? And if we can explore that, if you're having pain in your hip, what's the tension? How is your body holding on to the tension? What is it holding on to? And maybe we can and why? And why? Right? So it may be something that you know, something happened. And this goes a little far back. But it's like something that maybe happened that when you were a kid and you've been holding on to it in your legs. I'm just making this as an example. Yeah, you're holding on to it in your legs since you were a kid and you weren't even really aware that it was there, but you have bad knees. Right? And so now we can explore maybe the tension around your knees and how that stress is impacting you why and maybe we can relieve some of that stress. Is that is that kind of what you're saying?

Michel: 39:55

Yeah, that's I think that's a very simple Yeah. You can you could come in and you can say, okay, because I'll have people fill out like a little small intake form, and they'll put their stuff on there and they'll come okay. And so I'd be like, Well, what's your intention for this session and people will be like, okay, so I have, you know, let's say I have a client who had issues with their spine, she got in a car accident, and her spine was injured, she had rods in her spine and stuff. And so once we like went into once we went into what happened prior to that, when she was, you know, let's say 17. And she got some GHD in her drink, and, you know, that sort of thing. So anyway, when that when that active memory was resolved, which is done, more or less like EMDR, but I call it like, EMDR, with steroids, like, you really get in there with the memory, and you take away the charge, because that's what we're suffering from. It's not just the memory, but the emotional charge that's around it. But anyway, when she when that was resolved, she all, she could stand up straight again.

Jen: 41:14

Wow. So there's a lot of times in, you know, there's just another layer to it. But a lot of times, there is like a physical trauma that happens with people. So like you just said, a car wreck, right. And then, you know, years later, they're still having a lot of pain. And I'm just again, this is just my simplified version of how I'm understanding it. But because I know this is a lot more complex, but you know, they may be having also physical trauma around their injuries that you can help maybe relieve some of that trauma that they're experiencing. From, like the car wreck and the memories, holding on to the trauma of it, to help kind of support them in healing mentally from it. Is that,

Michel: 42:13

yes, I mean, I from my, from my experience, like, let's just say, first time I was molested was when I was eight, and that was like a really traumatic thing. I can talk about it, like, Oh, my socks are maroon right now. Because you really get in there, and you let go of all of the pain, all the guilt, the shame and all those things. It's almost like a deep cleaning. Yeah, and so it's like, with, you know, this one's a very smart one, because it's a modality because it goes off of what someone's ready to look at. So we'll do like basic, like analysis and stuff just to kind of work you up. And you know, and then when you're ready to go into a little bit deeper things, then you know, your subconscious, let's, let's it lets us know,

Jen: 43:04

right? So, um, so this is something that you started doing for yourself when you couldn't get help, right? From like, the services at the VA, and you're going in, and you're talking to, I'm assuming, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but it was like, you know, your basic counselor or therapist, and, you know, you go in and you start talking, but you're not really getting anywhere, you're like, I need to get somewhere else, like I need to be in a different place. And I don't know how to get there, you know, so I don't know how to get there by myself. Yeah. If I knew how to get there by myself, I'd be there.

Michel: 43:47

Right.

Jen: 43:51

So now I need, like, this is not helping, like I think I think, you know, sometimes that's a very helpful thing, depending on what a person needs. And I think that sometimes, we need to try different things. And so you tried this thing for your status Body Talk, and you're like, look, I don't know what this is what this looks like, but it seems like maybe it could help we're gonna give it a shot. And now, when you first went into it, though, were you like, completely open to the idea of it? Or was there like some resistances that you may have had initially?

Michel: 44:33

know me, I'm like, you know, I understand where resistance is come from, because it's really not your, you know, run of the mill, you know, ways of therapy. But no, I was wide open. I was just like, at that point of, I'll do anything.

Jen: 44:51

Right, you know? Yeah. Because you're like, I just don't want to feel like this anymore. And I'm willing to just do it. anything I want in my life? Right? Yeah. And at any point? Did was there any sort of like questions like, what were some of the questions that you had about this type of modality? In the beginning,

Michel: 45:23

I had a lot of questions, because I was very intrigued, because, you know, we, you know, especially like with the ancestral clearing, and just just so many things, epigenetic part of it, and I was just like, what's that? What's that, you know, you know, I was so keen about how, you know, belief systems begin and how they start from one energetic level and make themselves doubt, you know, their way down to the physical because it all starts right here. And that is what all of a sudden, turns into some sort of physical manifestation. So I just, I loved it, I saw what it did for me. And I always wanted to be a therapist since I was in eighth grade. And I wanted to, I wanted to help ease the suffering of people, you know, and then I said, this is, this is my thing, and I just hit the ground running.

Jen: 46:22

And so now you do this for a living, because you were like to like this, this helped me so much I want to take take it and expand it in and do it for other people as well. And so your your clients see a lot of benefits from this. Does it work for everybody?

Michel: 46:45

Um, so that's an interesting question. Depends on how I believe Okay, so if people keep doing it, yes, I do believe it does. Because there are, there's certain people that are really like, even though they're, they've tried everything, and they come to me, they're still like this, if you could imagine, like, one of those, like metal vault doors, you know, to the bank, as I closed getting into shit, you know, and it's like, I have clients like that. But it's like, if, when I get out of the way, and not need them to heal, and I take, you know, we take our time, and just, you know, just go at it as they work, because I can find backdoors. You know, that's, that's one of the beautiful things that, that I'm given as well, if I will find a backdoor and we still see relief, you know, I had a client who came who had like Lyme disease, and we just did little, just little balances you wouldn't think was nothing, you know, we didn't really go deep in it, you know, first and her Lyme disease was gone after two sessions, you know, and I was just like, wow, you know, so yeah, I would say yes, if people, I always tell people to give me at least six sessions, and and if you haven't seen any results, then then you know, we can shake hands and go our separate ways.

Jen: 48:14

Yeah. And I think that's fair, because I think, you know, six sessions is a good time to feel like you you're you get it, you get a kind of a sense of this person that you're working with, right? So like, yeah, they get a sense of you, they get a sense of, of what the work looks like. Because I think, like, because you had mentioned this earlier in the podcast, expectations. You're on. So it's like people, even if they don't know what to expect. We're human beings. And we still come in with expectations, right? And so times, like, we may not have a bigger picture, or we may not know, and we won't get a real handle on what the work looks like, for about six sessions. Right? And it's like, that gives you a chance to really know what to expect, who I am, how I work. And then, you know, kind of where the conversations go, and how to even have the conversations. Because I think for people that aren't familiar, because I'm in like the coaching space, right? Right. Everybody knows what the heck that means. And they have no they're like, I don't even know what I'm doing here. It takes about that many sessions, just to know how to come into the sessions with an open mind with no expectations and to be clear about what do they want to achieve also, right, open?

Michel: 49:55

Yes, yeah. And develop that relationship because Um, I've heard that like, you know, the relationship between client and practitioner, coach, whatever it is, is like 80% of that healing. So it's like when you are in that space of someone that, you know, doesn't judge you, that accepts you for who you are. And it's just there for you. Yeah, I mean, that is like life changing in itself. Because people that are coming to you with problems, they don't feel like life is there for them or that their families or in anyone is and so you come into this space, and you have someone that's like, your friend, basically, it's like, you everything within you can relax. Yeah, you know?

Jen: 50:42

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So how do like, for any of my audiences? Are you do you do it like in person? Is this a in person? Oh, do you do virtual? So you do virtual sessions, as well. So if someone if one of my audience members was like, you know, maybe I'm ready to try something different. Maybe I am like, because, you know, what you do isn't necessarily directly about substance abuse. And I know, that's what this podcast is, but it's so this views is never the actual problem, especially because I'm working with the families, right? And it's like, a lot of times, the families forget, because they're so focused on their loved ones. Yeah, like, well, I don't have a problem. Well, you don't have the same problem. You don't have that problem. But there are things going on, like you spoke about the guilt, the shame, the questions, the you know, I'm constantly setting myself up for failure, because I'm expecting things that it doesn't ever happen the way that I want it to. And all right, and then we hold on to that stuff. out now we're in survival mode and whatnot. Right? So it's all about those kinds of things, the things to heal the things to, you know, really let go of. So if any of my audience members wanted to find you, how would they be able to do that?

Michel: 52:28

Well, you can go to my website, which is Body Talk with Michelle, and you would have to probably have that in your

Jen: 52:38

I will. Yeah, I will have that in my show notes.

Michel: 52:43

I'll even leave my business email as well, you know, just and you just email me and first session is always by donation, because I like to give people a chance to see what it is to work together in this kind of way. And kind of get to know Body Talk. And after that I do a sliding scale, because I like to keep this kind of work affordable for you know, all kinds of different walks of life, but still, you know, honor myself as well, you know, right.

Jen: 53:17

Right. That's amazing. And to my families out there that that are listening to this, what, what would be one of the final things that you would just want to say to them the final message for yourself? I know, that's a big question. There's so many things, but if you could say one thing to them, what would it be?

Michel: 53:41

Hmm. So it doesn't matter, like whether you have like a life like mine, you just being human is hard. And so even from childhood, we collect all kinds of different things in our buckets. And so without, like our permission, we share those things with our children and everyone around us. And so I think it's key for us to take that time for ourselves, because we put our time, everywhere, for everyone and everything. And the thing is, is that we can't be that everyone and everything, unless we be that for ourselves first. And so by doing that we can, you know, have some courage and look at that shadow. And then, you know, know that you have support doing it, you know, it's like I know that we all have to make the decisions and do the things you know, ourselves. But you know, you have support and you have someone to guide you. And and then you can have something better to pass along to your children and to everybody else because I mean, all I've seen, you know, in my families and I know it's no different than anyone else's is that it's just a whole bunch of recycled Trump are being passed down, passed down, passed down. And, you know, I think it's a, I think it's a good idea to be the one to stop the cycle.

Jen: 55:11

That was such a power. So many things so powerful to go into that in in, you know, remembering that we are so many things to so many other people and really remembering to focus on ourselves as well, it to be something to ourselves, and that we don't have to do it alone. And again, like, if you knew how to get there, you had to be there and write it we don't have to do that we sometimes we can't figure this out on our own. Because we know you're only we are only today as as we're talking even just me and you, right? We have a set of tools and skills at our disposal. And we may come across something that is out of our toolbox that we don't

Michel: 56:06

have, yeah, I have a team. I mean, like, I get body talk. I also I have another modality ifs, but I also get internal family system sessions. And I also do that as well. I also get this thing called surrender coaching. And I have a psychotherapist, so I feel like it takes a team, you know, to come at these things, especially if you've had like a lot of trauma in your life. So yeah, yeah, it's good to have support.

Jen: 56:38

It is. Well Michelle, I just want to thank you so much for sharing so much of yourself. And this conversation that I know is going to help so many people. So I really thank you for your time and for your energy. So thanks for coming on.

Michel: 56:54

Thank you very much.

Jen: 56:55

And thank you for listening to this podcast. If you want to listen to more or find more information out about this podcast and more of what I do to help families you can go check out my page at unbreakable boundaries podcast.com. It's full of other great podcasts just like this one, and other great resources to look through. And please remember to share this podcast with others. You never know who may need to hear this people are often hiding their battles in this arena. And sharing is a great way to provide this valuable resource to a person you may not even know who needs it. And don't forget there is always hope even when things seem the most hopeless