#63: Chelsea Curtis: The Power of Sharing From the Heart

Chelsea is a Narcotics Unit Paralegal Specialist with the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Eastern District of Virginia, and a member of Silent No More. Addiction has rattled just about every one of her family members, ultimately claiming the lives of her two oldest brothers Steven and Scott. Steven passed away from a heroin overdose in 2009 and Scott passed away from an overdose attributed to a mixture of Fentanyl and a new synthetic opioid called Isotonitrazene. Her stepdad passed away from cirrhosis of the liver caused by his decades long alcohol addiction. Chelsea's birth mother has been an addict for years, falling victim to heroin, crack, and other drugs. 

Her youngest brother has been on opiates since he was about 13 or 14 and is now 30. She wants to share her story and have these uncomfortable conversations to end the stigma associated with addiction.   Chelsea wants to keep Steven and Scott's stories alive, and she wants to be an example that your circumstances today do not warrant your path tomorrow. She wants her story to spread hope to those personally battling addiction and those affected by watching their loved one’s battle addiction. Together, we can fight this.

Topics:

• The power of sharing from the heart and the power of stories.
• What was the turning point in your life?
• My mom’s overdose in front of me.
• Was there a significant change in the way you saw your mom in that moment?
• Growing up in foster care and the military 
• Why did you never go down the drug abuse road?
• Never felt the need to escape from addiction.
• Bobby’s brother dies from addiction.
• You have a choice to see the negative or the positive in life.
• Mental health isn’t going to get fixed overnight.

Transcript

Jen: 0:00

Welcome back to the unbreakable boundaries Podcast with your hosts, myself, Jennifer Maneely. And today's guests, I met this person at an event that I was doing, where I brought some of my artwork and it was at the I'm gonna get this wrong, but it was a prism of it was the prism of vent out in Raleigh and opioid Summit. Thank you people's opioid summit I, you know, I always get stuck sometimes in remembering things. And her organization came out and shared, just a lot of really great things. And it was called silent, no more. And it, it was such a powerful conversation. And as soon as I heard her story, I was like, I knew, I know, I had to have her on my podcast, because it was so real, so authentic. So just everything was perfect. In terms of her sharing, what it is that we need to be talking about more around this field, and her name is Chelsea Curtis. And I'm gonna let her introduce herself just a little bit more in in what she wants to say. So thank you, Chelsea, for coming on the podcast.

Chelsea: 1:17

Thank you. So we met at the People's opioid summit down in North Carolina. It our program is silent no more is a program ran from the US Attorney's Office for the Eastern District of Virginia. And basically, we go out to middle and high schools, and we give presentations about opioids and what's out there. And we are composed of a prosecutor who handles narcotics and overdose cases, we have a DEA agent who presents what's out there, what's being seized, cases and how some sentencings have happened. We also have family members who have lost family member or other family members to addiction and overdoses. Primarily, it's moms who have lost their children. I believe that I'm the only one that has lost siblings. And then we also have a doctor Dr. Denise who is phenomenal. She gives a very How do you even get her interactive presentation who I believe Jennifer was when I

Jen: 2:20

was I was I remember doing a bunch of push ups. And yeah, I was thinking I was gonna get so that it was very interesting is one of the better presentations that I've seen when it comes to like a prevention type presentation. Dr. Denise, she was amazing. She was energetic. I was like, I could see the importance like and what do you go into high schools and middle schools? I went through the first time I did this was like, not very long goes. Like maybe October was my first time I went into a high school to share a little bit about my story. When it was really scary to I was like, how am I going to keep these teenagers entertained? I don't think I did a great job. I think Dr. Denise nails it when she doesn't. And I think it's important. But it was it. It was a great. It was a great thing. And I think it's so important that we do start having these conversations in middle and high school. Because the earlier we can kind of get get to them and have them understand what's happening, I think is important. So I think that organization is so powerful. And of course that was how I again, I met you right. So you said you had lost two siblings?

Chelsea: 3:44

Correct. I've lost. So I have five brothers. And the two oldest are twins. Scott and Steven and Steven passed from a heroin overdose in 2009 August 4 2009. And Scott passed from a fentanyl and Eisah to knit a zine which is a newer drug hitting the market on August 22 of this year.

Jen: 4:07

So August is not that long ago. Right now as we're recording this, we're in December. So August of this year is this is like still a really fresh thing for you.

Chelsea: 4:21

It is and that's actually how I got involved with Silent No More So as a lot of people are aware, August 31 is national overdose Awareness Day. And Scott passed on the 22nd. I had taken about a week and a half off of work. It was you know, it was sudden like, you know, you deal with family members who are addicts and they were you know, Scott was addicted to drugs for a long time many years. And you know that one day that may come but it doesn't make it any easier. It doesn't help you prepare for it, like a lot of people say nearly always have hope that they'll get clean. It's from their life around. But on August 31 My counterparts who run this island and more program down in Richmond Kim Olivia, who you met In North Carolina, they send an email out to the to our entire district. And, you know, with the facts of how many people die every year from overdoses and how an entire college football stadium can be filled by it, like really, like, they share statistics in these programs that really put it in, in perspective, right. And so because you could hear 100,000, but you don't really understand, like, how many people that really is. And they send the email out, you know, with the statistics and you know, the fact that it's, we always do it for like, the National Days, right? They don't do like National Donut Day, and they don't bring doughnuts, and unfortunately, but when they sent this email out at the end of the email was, you know, of, if you wanted to get involved with the offices work, to bring recognition to overdoses. And I just knew at that point that I had to do it. It was only it was like, I think nine days after Scott had passed, I don't I wasn't even back at work, and I had my laptop at home, you know, we have the option to telework. And I saw the email on our contact center right away. And it was like, Look, wherever I can fit in, you know, I'm not an attorney, then go to law school. But you know, this has affected my life in significant ways. Wherever I can fit in, like, I'm happy to help I deserve. And so that's where it all kind of began. And the people's opioid summit down in North Carolina was actually my first speaking engagement, and I was terrified. I remember the night before they got to the hotel, and they were saying like, Have you thought about what you're gonna say? And I'm like, no, like, I haven't prepared anything. I haven't practice. But then like, they reminded me Olivia reminded me I think it was you know, like you live this right? There's, there's nothing you can prepare for like you lived it, you experienced it, and nobody can tell it better than you. And I just went with that. And so the next morning, I remember we met downstairs, it was like seven o'clock to get breakfast. And I had my two year old with me and, and his dad, and I had no clue what I was going to say. And I remember Cory asked me like Dave, have you? You know, have you thought about it? Are you ready? And I was like, not really. But you know. And then when I got up there, though, to talk, thankfully, the pictures of Scott and Steven were behind me. So I didn't have to, you know, like see the pictures, because I probably wouldn't have been able to do it. But after this, I knew that after the song finished, which is the start of our program that I was after that included and I was just like, I remember the song getting to the end, and I was like, Oh my gosh, I have to take the mic now. And so I got up there I had no clue like what was I gonna say for my first sentence? Oftentimes, like that first sentence, right? is the hardest thing to say? Because how do you lead into what you want to say? How are you going to be effective. And so I had no idea. But then when I got up there, like it just came out. But yeah, that's how it all kind of started.

Jen: 7:39

And it was your stories. So it's not like, you have to come up with something. It's like, whenever we're share from the heart. And I think that's what really attracted whenever we're just sharing from the heart, what comes out is what needs to come out in that moment. And it's exactly perfect. The way that it wasn't, there was so much to the story. I know you only had like 10 minutes here. And you did share a lot about like your your brothers that did pass away. And you shared a little bit about your own story within that which I found to be really powerful as your story of what it looks like to because when I hear it, I'm like, Well, this is a person that could that had two roads to go down the road of the road of self destruction or the road of I guess what I would call like rising up to the challenges. And in you made some probably very difficult choices to rise up more to the challenges of, of what you were presented in your life. So I would love to hear a little bit about your own, like, upbringing and story.

Chelsea: 9:00

Yeah, sure. So, I don't know if I always rose up to those challenges. I was you know, well, I'll get to that in a minute. So, growing up, we had a great life. I was in gymnastics, my brothers, my my next oldest brother Cody. He played football. I mean, we, you know, like we had a good life. We had a nice pool, nice house. Lots of woods. You know, we I I'm the only girl so we would take an old mattress out in the middle of the woods. And that was our trampoline, right? Because we didn't have the money for real trampoline. So we had, you know, a relatively good upbringing. My birth mother and Tracy was married to the twins dad. So I mean, the twins do have different moms. But she was married to their dad, Rick. And you know, Rick was the best that I could have ever asked where you came in my life when I was eight months old. And that was the only dad that I knew. When I was eight, and we have a neighbor and we used to always do stuff with this neighbor he lived at the end of the street name was Walter. And what One day, he was like, Hey, do you want to go fishing? And so me and a few other kids from the neighborhood we went, we had this canal back in the back of our neighborhood. And there wasn't many houses in our neighborhood like it wasn't, you know, as as congested as neighborhoods are nowadays. And so we went fishing, and after a couple hours, I'm very fair skinned, as you can see. So he said that I was starting to get a sunburn, and that he would take me home. And I had rode my bike down there, because we were, you know, neighborhood kids, we ride our bikes everywhere. So I was like, No, I can ride my bike home. And he was like, No, I said, I'll take you home. And so he ended up actually picking me up and throwing me into his vehicle, and then locking the door. So I couldn't get out. And he had already put the child locks on the doors. And he put, he threw my bike in the trunk. And he's driving away. And I remember like, I was, like, really scared, right? Because yeah, I know this guy. But like, I just got thrown into a vehicle and like, my parents have never been abusive to me at this point. And so he was driving around the back roads and kept going around in circles. And the canal was maybe a two minute drive to my house. And then eventually, he was like, Do you want to drive? And so I'm like, do I want to drive like, I'm eight years old, of course, I want to drive. So I got on his lap. And you know, I was driving around and I would turn to go to my house and he would take his hand and fix the steering wheel to make me keep going around. Well, he ended up molesting me. And when this went on for probably about 30 or 45 minutes, then finally we don't know what happened. But he decided, okay, well, it's time to take her to her house. So we went home and I remember getting out and I was holding back tears. He had told me that if I told my parents, he would kill my entire family. And I believed him, right? Because I'm anything. Yeah, right. And I can't think of anything. But this monster that just did this to me. And I have this flood of emotions. And it's, it's crazy to me how vivid it still feels. It's what 24 years later, and it still feels like it was yesterday. And so I remember wreck was outside my stepdad and he knew something was wrong right away. He's like, what's wrong, and I was like, nothing. And then and then my birth mom Tracy came out. And if you hear me call her Tracee I don't call her mom because she's been out of my life for so long. But she is my mother. But she came out and then she knew something was wrong. So she took me out. We had this bonfire pit in the backyard. And there was a swing by and she took me out there. And I told her what happened. Rick was getting my bike from Walter out in the front by the driveway. And so I told her what happened. And as soon as Walter pulled off, she screamed out Rick's name like it was just like this heartfelt pain that you could hear. And he came running through the through the yard in we told him we call the police right away. They took me to the hospital to the exams, everything like that. He was arrested. Even my oldest brother, one of the twins was my right hand like he was my best friend. He was my protector. He was I mean everything that a girl could want. Right? And and I remember when he found out he had went to the house and it was a White House and he spray painted child molester lives here and black spray paint. And Walters house, the side that he spray painted face the main road. So anybody who came anywhere near our house or was just driving through would see this. And then later that night, him and him and Scott would get into. They were mischievous. So and they were twins. So they did everything together. And they tried to set this house on fire also. Thankfully, they were unsuccessful. But, um, so then we went through the court process and everything. And I remember after I had to testify in the judge's chambers, and I remember coming out of the courtroom, and the first person I saw was Steven. And then Rick was beside him. And I remember Stephen just kneeling down with his arms open. And I ran right into him. I didn't go to my mom, I didn't go to my dad. I went to Steven. And so that was that was really the turning point, I think for when I started noticing, like everything going wrong. I remember Scott and Stephen like noticing that they were smoking marijuana. We have this big red barn on the side of your house. And I remember, Rick would go out there all the time, and twins would go out there and they would smoke this stuff that to me, I mean, it it smelled. It smelled great, right. It was a very unique smell. So when I first noticed them started doing it, and then I started noticing Tracy, I didn't know at the time, but looking back and you know, once I started learning what everything was. That's where I started noticing her drinking more and taking pills and she would just be out of it. She ran an assisted living facility inside our home. So we had patients that lived with us and then allowed her to be home with us more and, and and stuff. So that was kind of the turning point. And the next couple years were just really raw They were abusive to each other. Scott and Steven were in and out of the house. They're 12 years older than me. So they were adults at this point. But they were they would come and stay with us sometimes. And, you know, be in family events and family photos and stuff like that. But they didn't live with us constantly.

Jen: 15:17

Right? So, I have a question real quick, because I want to ask this before we keep going. So you say that kind of this time, because at first it was it's like, okay, we, I live in a good home, I live stable, all of this stuff, something happens. And now there's a turning point when you look back on it, because an eight year old, like an eight year old brain, right, like this is just norm. Like, rather, these things are just norm. So my question, I think, to you is, when you look even back further, was was it the turning point? Or was it the turning point in which you just started noticing? Like, no, I don't see happening before.

Chelsea: 16:05

So I don't even think that I noticed that, then in the moment, I think now being older and like really reflecting on my life, because when every person in your family has an alcohol or drug addiction, and you make it out. And like I also have another brother who you know, made it out, and we've never been addicted to anything, you start to wonder why like, how did we escape it? Why didn't we follow the same path. And so you start reflecting on everything that happened. And so now looking back, I see that as kind of where the chains became broken. Then when I was eight, or when I was 10, or 11, or 12, or going through my teenage years, I never really reflected on it, right? Make it day by day, right?

Jen: 16:47

It was just normal. Right?

Chelsea: 16:49

Before lunch. You know, Tracy, you know, I've heard stories that like she used drugs, you know, before I was born, you know, before my older brother was born. So it could have been and I just never noticed it. But after the sexual abuse happened, that's when it was like now I can really notice that that's really where things started going south, Rick and Tracy started becoming abusive towards each other. They separated. So witnessing, you know, them fighting and arguing. And you know, like, in the moment, you're just like, Oh, they're just having an argument or oh, you know, they're getting into a fight like you think that that's normal, right? Until you get older and you realize like, that's not a healthy situation. That's not what's supposed to happen. And so they had separated in I think it was around 2000 2000, maybe. So I was 10 when they officially like they they began dating. And oh,

Jen: 17:45

so it's kind of like all of a sudden, your stable home? Or what used to be a stable home started kind of becoming a little less stable. Absolutely. Yeah.

Chelsea: 17:56

Yep. And then so Rick had moved out and he got his own place. And Tracy began dating another guy. And so fast forward to 2001. We went to Orlando to visit the twins were living in Orlando at this point. And we went to visit that Steven at his apartment. And we knew, like I knew at this point that something like they I didn't know that they were using drugs, but I knew that sometimes when I saw my brother's like, they were just acting a little different, or, you know, something had was altering the way that they were acting. I don't think that I knew really about drugs at that point. Um, so we went to Stephens apartment. Tracy's boyfriend had went with us, it was supposed to be like an Orlando vacation. And Tracy and I were alone at Stephens apartment, Stephen. I don't remember where he went. I don't know if he went to see a friend or went to work or what but face and I were alone. And I remember being in the living room watching TV, I think. I don't know. It was some cartoon that was on like Ren and Stimpy or something back in the day, right. And, um, and I had called out to her because I was hungry, and she didn't respond. And so I was like, oh, maybe she's in the bathroom. So I remember waiting a little bit and then when the next commercial break came on, and she still didn't respond to me, I went to look for and she was laid out on her back on Stephens bed. Her arms were stretched out, and she had a prick in her right hand on the ring finger. And it was really like bizarre, but she had like blood coming out from right there. And she was her face was turning blue and she was foaming at the mouth. I was 11 I had no clue like you know, they always teach one. But in the moment like you're not thinking well what was I trained or what was I taught to do? So I called her boyfriend first and I was like, hey, Mom's not like answering me. Her skin is turning blue and he was like you need to hang up and call them. So I did. The medics came they were able to revive her took her to the hospital at this point My brother's had come to the hospital. And then they released her. And that night she overdosed again. And that was on February 25 of 2001. And it was either February 25, or like two weeks before, but anyways, it was sometime in February and then we go back to we grew up in North port Florida. And so we go back to Northport A few days later. And I would say maybe two or three weeks later, DCF was at our door to take us away. And I'll never forget, my first caseworker who came in removed us her name was Samantha Erickson. She's, I still keep in contact with her too, with her to this day. And she, to me is like an angel on Earth. Right? Because had it not been for her? I don't know that I'd be speaking with you on this podcast.

Jen: 20:46

Well, yeah, because well, and so I just want to point just a couple of things out because this is this is something that's like really frustrating, right? So you have this person that has young kids, who just overdose in front of their daughter, right? Daughter's 11 years old, has called 911. Bring her back to life in, take her to the hospital, and then release her on the same day. Is that and then? And then she overdoses again, within the same 24 within the same 24 hours. And it took and I'm so glad that you had your angel. And it took two to three weeks for some.

Chelsea: 21:34

So I couldn't be I couldn't. Because yeah, but it did. I remember going home and I remember. Like, I just remember, it was just very different. In the house, right? I didn't feel like I could go talk to her. I didn't feel like I could count on her for anything. I had my best friend since I was three years old lived right around the corner. And I remember spending a lot of time her name is Ariel, I remember spending a lot of time at her house. And her mom also was another angel on earth. God rest her soul. But I spent a lot of my a lot of my childhood there, especially after the sexual abuse happened. Like it was just not good in my house. So

Jen: 22:14

when would you say was this? And it made me back further. So I'm just gonna ask question, but when did you start kind of losing faith and trust in your mom?

Chelsea: 22:28

Um, well, I can't really say like, I don't feel like I ever had the connection that a lot of people have with their mothers. I was always a daddy's girl. And my brothers were my world. The twins, I will say that my my other brothers like we would fight like normal kids. But like, I don't know if it's because Scott and Steven were 12 years older. But they didn't play by me. They kept me with them. They always looked out for me whenever I wanted, I got

Jen: 22:56

they were kind of like your your caretakers,

Chelsea: 23:00

in a sense, when when they were around, for sure. Stephen would make me brownies and sweet tea every time. Or pasta salad, which was like one of my favorite things as a kid. But they just weren't around all the time. So it would be like when they when they came around. But I was always extremely close with their dad, who was my stepdad, Rick. And I mean that to brush my hair every night when I got out of the mountains, and he'd put it in a braid while we watch Judge Judy. So I'd never really had that with Tracy, though. I'm sorry. I never had that with Tracy. So I don't, I don't know if I ever really. Like would say that I lost the faith or trust in her because I she wasn't the person that I would go to if I needed

Jen: 23:44

just right. You just never really had it. But I'm at the point in which, like, you found her in an overdose. And you had to deal with all of that. It maybe maybe not. I don't know, that's why I'm asking the question. But was there like a significant change? Just even the way that you saw her in that moment?

Chelsea: 24:09

I think so. Um, I think that you know, felt a lot of emotions that I think any family member goes through when they you know, especially witness somebody overdosing you know, you feel angry, feel confusion, you feel betrayal, you feel like sadness, you feel frustration, you feel, you know, like, you start to question yourself and at 11 years old, it's a lot to process. Right? Because you like you don't understand what an overdose is. And back then, you know, there wasn't as much out there on it. You know, we didn't have Google at our fingertips we didn't have you know, the Internet was still on dial up at this point. So it's not like we had you know, flip phones were thing but we didn't have phones I didn't have my first one was Howard 17. So

Jen: 24:51

why didn't talk about this stuff, then much right. You know, like we have a hard time talking about it now. But let's have a hard time talking about it. Now. But even then it was like rehabs and resources for this stuff weren't as available. And there was so much more stigma and shame around it, you know, right then. And there still a lot now. Right? But even just a few years ago, it was we don't talk about that stuff. This was this isn't what you do. There's, there's obviously some moral failing character,

Chelsea: 25:29

right, like parents failed their kids or, and I know my grandma's still feels that way about my birth mom. You know, she feels like, maybe she failed. But, um,

Jen: 25:40

yeah. So. So you got to eventually you did get taken out of the house, though. And

Chelsea: 25:48

it did so. Yep. So I was first placed with my aunt, who, she's my aunt by marriage. Her mom had married my, my mother's dad. And I went to live with her. And I lived with her for only a few months until she began failing drug tests because she would get high with Tracy. And then I was taken from her I was placed with my older brother's dad. And I lived there for a little bit until they tried reunification with Tracy. And so my older brother, Cody went and lived with his dad, which is the dad that I'm referring to now. And he said that he wanted to stay with him, he just didn't want to go back. And then my little brother also was with him at this point. And so they tried to reunify me and my little brother, Bobby, with Tracy. And so it didn't work. She had told the state that she didn't want me, but that she would keep Bobby and so the state was like, well, that's not how this works, you know, like you don't pick and choose. So they left me with her. And it was very turbulent for a little bit. And then they ended up taking me away because it clearly wasn't working. I was running away from from school I was running away from you know, I wouldn't go home. And so she would have to report that to the caseworker. The caseworker would come to do home studies. I wasn't there, but they knew where to find me because I would always be at Ariel's house or in school. So they put me in foster care. And they had continued to try reunification over a couple years. And it got pretty bad. And there were times when I would run away from foster homes, you know, like foster homes aren't always the greatest. I'm not saying that they're all bad. But there are some who I truly and wholeheartedly feel like do it for the check. And so I would run away and go to Tracy's house, right because that's somebody that I knew it's not a stranger. And I knew that I could just easily run away from there if I wanted to, or, you know, I would have more control over the situation than I do with these strangers. So there was a few times that I went to Tracy's and she became physically abusive to me. There was a few times when she actually offered a smoke crack with me when I was 13. It was just it was a bad situation all around. And I just I had a hard time dealing with the fact why would she always put me back with the state, but she kept my little brother. And like I said in North Carolina, like now I really understand why and maybe she didn't understand why either. But like now, I'm huge in my faith and religion. So I always believe like God puts you where you need to be when you need to be there. And again, something I didn't understand, you know, in my younger years, but I appreciate now. And so we tried reunification for a while up probably up until 2015 2005. And then there was a point in time where she had me arrested and said that I had stolen her vehicle and her cell phone. So the cops and I was driving it, but I was driving it to pick her up from a bar at night and I took too long and I guess her dealer was waiting on her. And so she called the cops and I was arrested. Actually, I think that was when I was 13. Then because I was technically a ward of the state. The state picked up the charges even Tracy and went the next day and said look this I've completely made up the story. It's not true. Like I don't want to press charges, because that was a ward of the state. The state had picked them up. And so I ended up playing out I pled no contest one charge and they dismissed the other one. And so I was on juvenile probation. So I was in and out of juvenile detention halls because again with these foster homes, I would run away. I remember one in particular they had like 26 horses, 10 Goats 10 cats, which I'm highly allergic to cats, five dogs to pot bellied pigs like it was just it wasn't saying like and they would feed their dogs in the same dishes they gave us right. So I'm like I'm gonna stay in here. So I would call up a friend and be like, hey, come pick me up. And so you know every time over went away. That was a probation violation. And so I was in and out of juvenile detention facilities. And, you know, I was always told that I would never amount to anything. And I would be, I would probably end up just like Tracy hooked on drugs, a young mom, multiple baby daddies. You know, in my life, I would just never amount to anything. And so, yeah, whatever, you know, you go with, uh, okay. You don't know me. So I keep running away. Finally, in 2000. I think it was December of 2005. We were able to locate. So earlier in 2005, I had to take a DNA test with a man who they thought was my biological dad. And so in December of 2005, we found out he was my dad, he came to meet me the first time we ever met, I was in a juvenile detention center. And they I went, they took me to the to the kitchen or the dining area. And that's where I met my my real dad for the first time. And then upon my release. Him and his wife, Kate, who also is another angel on Earth. They came and picked me up and there was no more foster care for me. So I went to live with him. And I think that that is a turning point for my life at that point.

Jen: 31:18

Right. So before we I have a question, how many you said there was no more Foster? It sounds like you ran away? Quite often. How many foster places did you end up going into?

Chelsea: 31:33

Well, so that's a complicated question, because I don't I stopped counting after like, 25.

Jen: 31:39

But you stopped counting after 25 different placements?

Chelsea: 31:43

Yes. And I was in multiple counties. I was in youth shelters. I was in group homes. I was actually in one group home where I got jumped in my sleep. And then they tried to make me stay there. So what did I do? I ran away. I was in foster homes, group homes, youth shelters. And it was all over Florida. I mean, it was they didn't keep me where I grew up. And everything I knew, like I was in Tampa, I was in Orlando, I was in West Palm Beach. It was in, you know, for Myers, wherever they picked me up from running away, then they would just move me somewhere else.

Jen: 32:24

Did you even know half the time where you even were?

Chelsea: 32:28

Um, I was resourceful. I figure it out.

Jen: 32:32

Yeah, this is where I am right now. And I feel like

Chelsea: 32:35

I grew up. I feel like I grew up really fast. Because I had to, especially after Tracy overdose. I just felt like, I had to learn how to take care of myself, because I couldn't count on her. And let's, I mean, I don't think it's a secret to anybody that, you know, a young girl can go out and find somebody to take her pick her up, take her somewhere, you know, and thankfully, I was never a victim of like sex trafficking or any of the horrific events you hear about, you know, when people run away from foster care and stuff. But, um, yeah,

Jen: 33:06

yeah. Okay. So your dad takes you in. And there was more foster care from that point.

Chelsea: 33:14

Correct. And so I was, I was behind on my high school credits because of the running away. But we were able to get all that caught up. I caught up most of my credits while I was in the juvenile detention facility the last time. And so I went to live with John and he got me in high school, I joined the track team. You know, we went and did bowling together like things that families should be doing right that I never got a chance to do growing up. And so I guess, I owe a lot of credit to him and his wife for taking me in. Because again, at that point in my life, who knows what were what I would have taken had I stayed in foster care. And then I ended up graduating high school in 2007. And then I joined the military in 2008.

Jen: 34:07

So you had so you joined the military, and how long did you stay in service?

Chelsea: 34:12

So I was I only served for 10 months, I got discharged for a knee injury. And then I got out and I was like, Okay, what do I do now? Because I don't have that, you know, like me and John, we were, you know, we're close. But we're not like, we're not close, like most kids are with their dads who have grown up with their dads, right. So like, he met me when I was 15. I was I was a Hellion I was rude. I was argumentative. I would cut you out in a heartbeat. I just didn't care, right? My mom doesn't want me. You know, like, I I was taken away from my brothers. I was taken away from the only family and I knew I just I didn't care about losing anybody else. So I was very problematic around those years. And so I ended up he will before I joined the military, he tried to get me to go to Community Care. allegiance, I took a couple of courses, but then I was like, I'm not following your rules. I'm out of here. And so the military was the best option for me at that point. When I got out of the military, I kind of came home and just, you know, like, lived life day to day, like, I didn't really have any plan or anything like in force, I would. I had my own apartment, like, I wasn't scared to work that, you know, I've always, like I said, I grew up young. So I feel like I'm a little bit of an old soul. And so I live day to day, but I had no real plan for my wife. So then 2009 came. And it was a few months after I got out of the military. And I got the call that Stephen had passed away.

Jen: 35:48

And that really, were you at the time, like when you got that call? I know you said when you were younger, you just didn't really kind of know what was happening. You just knew that there was something that was changing the personality. When I knew about the drugs, right is Yeah, so when did you start kind of starting to understand what was really happening? And like, maybe on a scale of one to 10? How surprised were you when you got that call?

Chelsea: 36:20

Um, well, as far as being surprised. Like I said, even dealing with addicts, you know, most of my life. I don't think anything prepares you for getting that call. Yeah. I don't think it's ever something like and I say it a lot. You know, my little brother and my birth mom. Well, my little brother is in recovery now. But my birth mom is still on drugs, right? And so I always say like, she's gonna kill herself like, but I still think that if I were to get the call tomorrow, or today, it would be just as surprising as if I never knew she did drugs. And she and I got an overdose call. Yeah. I don't think there's anything that really prepares you or lowers that level of surprise. Yeah. I remember being in denial for a while about that one. So I didn't go to his funeral. I couldn't, I just, I knew he was cremated. And I knew it was gonna be a celebration of life versus like, you know, your normal funeral. But I just couldn't go because A, may have been just a mental block, but like, I, I did not process for years, the fact that Stephen was gone. And still to this day, like, I struggle with it a lot, because my son, you know, reminds me so much of him. You know, it's, it's, they're not blood related. But like, my son has the brown eye, you know, the big brown eyes and the dark hair, and, you know, has a lot of his personality. And so it's still really hard to this day, to really grapple with the fact that he's gone and it's been 13 years. It doesn't get any easier. So whoever came up with that phrase was full of it. You just learned to live life without them. Right? And you learn to hold on to the memories in a different way than what you would have appreciated before. So yeah, I didn't go to his funeral. Now looking back, do I have regret on that sometimes. But I knew the relationship that I had with him, and I didn't feel like I owe that to anybody else.

Jen: 38:35

Right. Um, so here's, we talked a little bit about you know, you've said that you just didn't really ever go down the drug world, even though it was all around you, your whole famous like you were taught this. And sometimes it's like, the expectations I think is like you have all the classic what I would call, I don't know if this is the right word, but all the like the classic symptoms of what someone with a drug abuse would have. And yet you just never went down that road.

Chelsea: 39:12

So I did smoke marijuana. And I would drink but it never I never took a hold of you. Right? It never took a hold. It never controlled my life. I never really liked the taste of alcohol. It was more like if my friends were taking a shot, I would take a shot. I enjoyed smoking weed for a little while. Again, it wasn't something that I had to do every day I had to do all day. It was just like, here and there. It's like I went to a party and it was there. It was fine, but that was the extent of it. But I just I'm not sure I don't know whatever. I don't know if maybe it's just I didn't I hated the way alcohol made me feel especially the next day you wake up with a hangover and you feel like why did I do that? So I just never I don't know if it was seeing like how Tracy acted when she was on drugs or One thing that twins when they would be nodding out, I don't know what exactly it was that didn't. Like wasn't appealing to me.

Jen: 40:09

It so yeah, I know. So it's it's so interesting. So this is what I like to remind like, because like your story would be like the quote unquote typical because I've met people from all sorts of backgrounds in terms of growing up. And I think the parents that I talked to a lot are the ones that that really struggle with, like, I don't understand what went, quote unquote, wrong, right? Because they had a good upbringing. I didn't teach them this, I didn't do. Like this was not I don't know how they even found drugs, and all those things, right. So those are the ones that I feel like really struggle, because it doesn't make sense to them how someone can go down that road that wasn't taught. And this is what I like to remind them is it's not always about like the upbringing, right? It's something much deeper going on internally, it's not even external factors that create someone, although it can contribute, like external things can contribute to the internal world that we have going on. But it's not a perfect checklist of, of what, quote unquote, went wrong. Right. So there's something that just didn't grab a hold of you internally. And if you could have your like suspicions, because I'm always playing with this. And I'm not saying that I have the answer. Anybody else has the right. But I like to play with this question a little bit of what what do you think contributed a lot to you not kind of letting that that external impact your internal to the point of substance abuse?

Chelsea: 42:06

I have no clue. I really, I really don't know. I don't know. Because I definitely had like the means where I could have easily accessed it. You know, I dated the drug dealers. I just never wanted to, I never and like I said, I don't know if it's because I saw Tracy, I don't know, I just I wish I had an answer for you. But I literally have the recipe for going down that road. And I just, I will say the grace of God, you know, saved me from it. So I'm not sure.

Jen: 42:46

I think no, I think that's a perfect answer. Because like, I've been playing with this question for forever now, but I still don't know. Right? Like, I don't know, exactly. The only thing that I can kind of grab a hold on to, is it something that happens internally? Maybe it's genetics. But it's like, you know, I think about like genetics is like okay, but if it was genetics with your whole family? Wouldn't that play a part in it? So it can't just be contributed solely on? It's like a whole storm of things. That I

Chelsea: 43:24

think Dr. Denise does a good job of explaining it as how there is, you know, the genetic wire for it. Right. Yeah. But then you have to also, like, decide that time to take it. And that one time may be the hook that gets you. I just never got to that one time.

Jen: 43:43

Right. Right. So yeah, there may have been a drug, there may have been a drug out there that you could have potentially tried that would have hooked you. You just never tried that thing. Because it was like you never really even want it to even though it was around you all the time. Right? Like all the various different things. You're like, I just don't really want this isn't right. And was it? It was just more of I don't want to or was it like, I'm scared of what could happen.

Chelsea: 44:15

I don't think I thought about either one of those in the time. I think I just don't think it was ever appealing to me. Like, yeah, I didn't and the I've always been like, you know, I know growing up like I was always like the life of the party. And so I just never felt like I needed anything to alter how I felt.

Jen: 44:32

So you were never really trying to even though so, and I find this so interesting, right? So even though you had so much like emotional pain and all of these struggles, it sounds like you just never felt the need to escape from all of that. Is that right? You're like right I don't need to go hide from this is just what happened. It was painful. This is why this is what I feel about it. I don't feel like I need to hide it. From it, is that accurate?

Chelsea: 45:02

I think so I think that that's a fair statement. Yeah,

Jen: 45:05

that's, and I think it's so because it's like, again, most of us who goes through something like that would probably not want to feel the things that we would feel through that like, and I don't want to, you know, harp on this, but it's like having having a mom, I can't imagine what it would do to me to have a mom that would keep one of the kids and not the other for whatever reason that she had, right? Our little kid brains are going to take right in as maybe she had valid reasons. Maybe she was just like, I'm just not a good, good enough mother for whatever isn't how much

Chelsea: 45:46

of a superstar was, and she couldn't.

Jen: 45:50

She was like, You know what, I can not deal with my daughter who was too freaking awesome. I cannot have the awesomeness in my house. Right? So that's a great way I like to think. Yeah, and you know, what, that's probably something along those lines. But I just like to play with that kind of, kind of, I guess, questionings or thoughts of experimenting, because I think, you know, we have sometimes I think in society, we have an assumption of what an addicts upbringing must have been like. And you what I have come to find for myself, and what I hear, what I like to bring to this is, is that it's not as clear or as clear cut, as sometimes people make it out. This is a complicated,

Chelsea: 46:48

right. And I think that, you know, a lot of times when when you're addressing addiction, or those who are going through, you know, the substance use disorder. They're always referred to as those people, you know, like, Oh, that'll never be me. I'll never, you know, and you can't say that, right. And so one thing about addiction is it does not discriminate. It doesn't just you could have had a perfect million dollar, you know, upbringing, you know, millionaire billionaire upbringing, you could have, you know, been raised in the slumps and had a bad upbringing and not fallen down that road or went down that road, you could be white, black, you could be Hispanic, you could be you know, tall, short, fat, skinny, you know, like, it does not discriminate, no matter what social background, you come from no matter like what, you know, class of society, you come, it just does not discriminate at all.

Jen: 47:35

Right. And this is, this is what I remind, you know, the parents have talks that talk to a lot of a lot more of the parents that lean on, but they had such a great upbringing. I don't write it right. Like, and, and, you know, I have to come back to them often, and remind them that this is not a parenting problem, right? It doesn't mean that parents can't do certain things to support them, once they get of age and How to Act Like, we're no longer and this one I remind parents, you're no longer trying to fix the quote unquote, mistakes that you think that you made, that's actually making things so much worse, right?

Chelsea: 48:18

Yeah. So and so after Stephen passed, I had a really rough time, I didn't know what I wanted to do in life. I didn't know like, I just felt like a part of me was gone. Because I turned to him, even through his deepest days of addiction, like, we still had conversations, we still talk to each other on a regular basis, I still got advice from him. And so for years, I really struggled with what do I want to do? What do I you know, he always wanted me to go to college. And so I didn't know what I wanted to go to college for. I never saw myself going to college. And so I think I struggled a lot with that. Like, why was he so in so much pain, that because at this time, you know, I'm you know, 20 years old, I, I know a little bit more about drugs. I knew that they both had an addiction. And so I'm like, what, you know, was there something that I could have done differently? That would have spared his life? And I think that's another thing that family members or friends of addicts, always question is, did I do enough? Was I there enough for them? Was it something that I did that ever made them feel less worthy than what they actually were? What if I'm right, right. Yeah. And you, you you struggle with that, like, Stephens been gone 13 years, right. And I still struggle with that. Like, I'm like, What could I have done? To save his life? And the answer is nothing. Right? Right. You're always told, like people always tell you like, you know, when you're dealing with an addict, you know, eventually you're, you know, for so long, you're enabling them. And so you need to draw that line and put them off, cut all the resources off, bla bla bla bla, and love them where they're at right? And then the hardest part for me is now with, I never cut Steven off. I talked to him up until his passing. But Scott earlier this year, we had gotten into an argument because he was getting high with our younger brother. And it's no secret like my little brother, Bobby has been addicted to drugs since he was like, 14. He's take that road, he did take that road. And so I got really, really pissed at Scott, because, you know, he was hanging out with Bobby and his friends and getting high with them. And, you know, I wanted more not only for Scott, but for Bobby also. And so but back up a little bit in 2019, Bobby and Scott have the same dad, Bobby and the twins have the same dad. But they have different moms, Bobby as my mom. So Rick passed away. And he died from cirrhosis of the liver secondary to his alcohol addiction. And he would put vodka and water bottles to try to hide it from us. And so that was a huge blow. And when that happened, I just kept telling myself, Bob is going to kill himself. And so by the grace of God, he did not. And so when, earlier this year, when Scott and I had gotten into it, I'm like, You know, Bobby has nobody, Tracy still strung out. And so that's not a good role model. I had moved up to Maryland, four years ago, four and a half years ago now. And so I wasn't there. And our older brother Cody had joined the military. And so he's, you know, not there. He's off in the military. And so I felt like Scott was that one person that Bobby did have, and instead of, you know, being what he should have been to Bobby, he was suffering in his own addiction. And I did not appreciate that. I didn't even think about what he was struggling with. I just saw the fact that he was getting high with our little brother, who has overdosed before. And I was angry about it. And so I told him, I didn't want to speak to him anymore. And then, and then Tracy called me on August 22. And I was driving down the road, my best friend, my son's godmother was actually up here. And I was driving on the highway. And she didn't say, you know, most people would be like, Hey, what are you doing? Can you sit down for a minute, like, I need to tell you something, she just went straight into it. I said, Hello. And she said Scott died. And it hit me like a ton of bricks. Like I felt the impact. It took me like maybe 10 seconds. And at first I was just when she first said it, I think that I don't even remember like, I just remember seeing blank. And then it really hit and I just broke down in the middle of a highway while I'm driving. And my friend Stephanie had to pull the car over. And then my cousin Marla called, or wrote me on Instagram right after that and was like, hey, I need to talk to you please call me. And so with Scott, I have a lot of regret, because I felt like I was doing everything right, because I follow that direction of, you know, love them where they're at, cut your ties and let them figure it out. But then the day never came for him to figure it out. And now he's no longer here. And at the time of his passing, we weren't on the best of terms. So I have a lot of regret about that. But I've also, you know, I say family members, but it includes friends. Like I feel like the cries of those who suffer from watching somebody in addiction. The cries never stopped. You know, they never stopped, whether they're here whether they've overdosed, whether they're just using every day, or whether they've overdosed and passed, it just it doesn't stop. Thankfully, for me, my work family truly got me through this because I don't have any family up here. And with the support of my office, you know, I feel like, throughout, you know, all the tears that I've cried, the people are probably like Chelsea, you're not allowed in my office anymore, right? Because you're just gonna come in here and you're gonna cry, it's gonna become a therapy session. But I really feel like my voice has been found. And so I've been able to become involved with the advocacy work and not only share my story in hopes of bringing, you know, motivation to people and inspiration, but you know, to I just want to have those uncomfortable conversations that people are scared to talk about, right? When I first of all, I never thought that I'd be working for the federal government. Never thought that I'd be working for you know, working with the DEA and FBI every day. You know, because I was I was always the kid who wasn't going to make it. I was always the kid that would end up having kids young dropping out of high school. I graduated high school a year early. I got my associates degree. I was the first in my family to hold any kind of college degree and then on the twins birthday this year November 6, was my last day of my undergrad degree. And so I finished my bachelor's degree CUSUM, Laude. And really, I was really struggling after Scott passed, and I wanted to quit school so bad. But Steven always pushed the fact that they never went to college. And then they wanted to make sure that we went to college. And so I use that, and you have two choices in life, right? So when you go through something, you can either sit and dwell on it, which is often the easiest thing to do, right? Or you can really like reflect on it, and really use that as like a purpose pusher, right? And so for me, that's what I chose to do with it. And so when I wanted to quit school, I literally had a picture of scones, even at my desk, I have it on my background of my work computer. And anytime that I have my son's picture, right here, oh, you can't see it, because

Jen: 55:56

it right in front of your face.

Chelsea: 55:58

Oh, and so, you know, like you, you have a choice, either see the negative or the or the positive. And sometimes, like when you're going through the Grid of Things, it's easier to just avoid things or not talk about things. And when I first started this job, I've been here for three and a half years. And I've had the privilege of working with some of the best not even best attorneys I've ever known, but like, truly the most compassionate people. And I'm so grateful for my work family and at VA. And I don't even know where I was going with this, I just lost my train of thought,

Jen: 56:30

Well, so here's one of the questions that I you know, I want to bring in because it's for all of his personal I'm just say it like this is that it sounds like at some point, you made a decision to get your shit together, for lack of better turn at the moment, get your shit together and do something with your life to the point where you are working in the government. And like, you know, you're doing so many amazing things. And you're working with so many interesting people that are in this in this field, some of them that have been touched, or on the legal side of just like how can we I guess maybe better support a system that was never designed. Because this is a lot of times we talk about, quote unquote, the broken system, right? I look at it as we're working within a system that wasn't designed to do what we're asking it to do. And so there are some holes that we need to start looking at maybe filling and it sounds like like your office, and like some of the organizations are starting to look at the system and go, How can we design a system that better supports what we need and what we're asking it to do not necessarily that it's quote, unquote, a broken system,

Chelsea: 57:58

just because you could say it's broken on many levels. But now I remember my thought that I was in. Yeah, so when I first started working here, almost four years ago, I never in a million years probably would have disclosing information about my family, right? Because as I was telling you earlier, I'm working with like these great attorneys, right, that went to like Harvard and Yale and like, you know, other law schools also, but like, they're going to like these Ivy League schools, they come from like, the super strong, foundational of families. And so you don't want to be that one that's like, oh, well, I'm a loner, you know, everybody in my family, everyone in my bloodline, you know, suffers from addiction or depression, because it can be depressing, because for so long, they're labeled as those people, right. But now, I cannot tell you how many times like I've shared my story, just one on one with people. And they either break down and start crying with me. And for one of many reasons could be they find, they tell me like, Oh, your story is so inspirational. You're so courageous, you're so brave. Okay, got it. They could also disclose the fact that they themselves have have experienced somebody, you know, suffering from substance use disorder or lost somebody to addiction. They themselves may have at one point, suffered from addiction and overcome it. So it's like, sometimes, it's, we don't want to have these conversations because we fear what others may think of us. Right? And so that's a big thing of people. Like in life, you care what I don't care what nobody says you care what other people think about you. And so, a lot of times we don't want to have those conversations, but that's what I want to do. I want to have those conversations. I want that foster kid in the audience to be like, it's not that my family doesn't want me it's that I'm destined for more. I want to serve as a liaison for those who are no longer here with us to continue sharing their stories. Just recently, I guess about three weeks ago now I was afforded the opportunity to go to the DEA is family. summit in DC, and I got to meet the the administrator and the Deputy Administrator of the DEA, I got to sit and have a talk like a 20 minute conversation with the Attorney General for the United States. And I got to present my story in front of people, you know, and every day, I just remind myself, you know, working overdose cases is hard on anybody, but when you've lost somebody, this close to you. You know, when I see some of the pictures from the from the scenes, you know, I can't help but to think was my brother found in this position? Were these measures taken on my brother? Is this what he looked like with the with the IO needle in his way, you know, like, there's things that you just and it's self torture it is. But as humans, that's what we do, right? But a bigger part of me find so much more purpose in my work. And it just makes me continuously think about where can I step in to try to implement change? It's a crisis that we're dealing with right now. The Fentanyl crisis is, is it's insane. Right. But in a lot of people feel like no matter how hard you fight, you can't get them on, which is probably correct. I can't say that. I don't disagree with that statement. But even if we're just getting one off of the streets, that's one less person that's dispensing it, that's circulating it. Yeah. I mean,

Jen: 1:01:13

it kind of goes back to the, the classic like starfish story, where, you know, you may have 1000s, and 1000s of starfish, you're throwing back in the sea, and you can't get them all. But to that one that you did get it matters, right. You know, so that's

Chelsea: 1:01:30

just, that's just where I'm at with it. And since since joining the silent Amour group, through our job, I've also been able to get my younger brother Bobby into recovery, he actually reached out that he was just gonna go to detox. Again, he didn't have anywhere else to go. And he had been through detox so many times, because let's think about our detox systems, you go through seven days, and then they release you when you're on your own again, well, guess what? The releasing you back into the environment where all you know, is the drugs, everybody you know, is the drugs. Yeah. So support there. Right. And so I was able to actually get him into the Journey House Foundation. And he has, he should be picking up his 60 Day chip in just a couple of weeks. So like I said, God works in I won't say funny ways, because sometimes I don't think it's funny at all. But he definitely works in mysterious ways. And I truly believe that. Sometimes it's not, you're not going through things for you. Because I was angry, I was angry for a long time in my upbringing, like, Why do I have to be the one go into foster care, but now like, I'm so thankful I went through it not only because I feel like that's what kept me from going down the same path. But because now I can share my story and maybe find other foster kids who may want to go down that path, but show them that, you know, your current situation doesn't determine your future outcome or your future path. You know, like, you can always overcome it, whether I didn't I had no support. So I was a lone ranger. Now, you know, I'm with my son's father, who is, I don't know what I'd be doing without him. I definitely wouldn't have my son, obviously. But, you know, once you get older, and you can make those decisions, you have full control of your life. And the decisions that you make today, you may not think, you know, may matter tomorrow, but they do and the decisions that other people make for you can suck today. But then tomorrow can be you know, your saving grace that you didn't realize. So that's just the that's just what I want to spread and sharing my story.

Jen: 1:03:38

Yeah. And, you know, I think you're hitting on something really important. And something that has to absolutely do with addiction, as well, is, you know, a lot of people, it's, there's definitely going to be that mental health component that we don't have control over. Yeah, but the choices on how to manage that is where it's like, we're still making choices. You know, we're still we don't have to live this way, it doesn't mean that, you know, we can just either just stop and think everything's going to be better. But there are things that we can do to make and help us work through some different decisions, and deal with our mental health in a way that's actually mentally healthy.

Chelsea: 1:04:26

And I think another really important thing that I don't think people think about, and I didn't until recently is, all of your problems didn't happen overnight, right? So they're not gonna get fixed overnight, you know, like, something that took like, if you've been in addiction for 10 years, guess what it may take you 25 years of sobriety to actually feel like you've gotten a hold of it. And I think that that's important, because every day every moment, every step really matters, right? And it may be hard to see that when you're at the bottom of the staircase. But then once you get up you're like, look, the past 25 years of my life, I've actually gone Pretty. I don't want to say pretty high, because I don't think that's appropriate term to use in this context. But you know, you've you've come far away. Yeah. Right. And so that's important to keep in mind is, it didn't all happen overnight. It's not it's like I tell myself every day as I'm trying to lose weight, I didn't pack on all this weight overnight, it's not going to go away overnight. So I just always try to keep that in mind as well. Yeah.

Jen: 1:05:25

Well, I will, I want to thank you one for just being on your podcast and sharing that, like, we got to talk about it. Because I'm, I'm a big believer of like, no matter how uncomfortable, sad or whatever, like, we really want to talk about it. Because like you said, earlier, it's, when we start talking about it, we give other people space to start talking about it, right. And we need to talk and it just is, it's, it's like, if we're dealing with the shame around it, like, that's our journey, we need to work on the shame that we have around it, that prevents us from talking about it. But our life is it just is things that happen doesn't mean that's who we are, right? And who we are is what we get to decide who we are and how much we're worth is what we get to decide of how much we're worth and all those things. So I want to thank you. One last question. Before we wrap up is for those families out there, what would be like the one thing that you would tell the families listening? Just anything? I know, that's a really broad question, but what would you want the families out there to know?

Chelsea: 1:06:31

This, keep loving your family? If they're even if they're in addiction, just love them? Because they may not be here tomorrow.

Jen: 1:06:40

That is so just powerful. And what a great message of just keep loving them. Well, thank you. And thank you for coming on. And one just sharing about your brothers. I know this is really hard is was really raw. So I just appreciate that very quickly, when your second brother died of like, you're like, Okay, time to take action, I want to do something. Let's, let's do this. And it's uncomfortable, and we're going to do it anyway. And I think that's really powerful. So thank you.

Chelsea: 1:07:16

Yeah, and I don't think it happened. Like when he passed, I don't think that was the first thing that came to mind, or second, or third or fourth or fifth. And I don't think that had my coworkers from Richmond sent the email out, I'm not sure how or when I would have gotten involved in, like I said, you know, support comes in many different ways. It doesn't just come and family, you can have a broken family and still have the support, you need to make a difference. And I think that that is key. And that is what I'm most grateful for is you know, I have the family that I've created now with with Korean I'd say in the girls and, but also my work family. And you know, it's easy to say, Hey, I'm gonna work my eight to five and go home. But when you have a family at work, it helps so much because it doesn't make it feel like work. But then in situations like mine, you know, I found a new purpose in my life and my voice and for that I will be forever indebted to EDA and the family that fear. Right,

Jen: 1:08:08

thank you. Well, thank you so much for coming on. This was a really powerful conversation to have it really appreciate your your time. And thank you for listening to this podcast. If you want to listen to more or find more information out about this podcast, and more of what I do to help families you can go check out my page at unbreakable boundaries podcast.com. It's full of other great podcasts just like this one and other great resources to look through. And please remember to share this podcast with others you never know who may need to hear this. People are often hiding their battles in this arena and sharing is a great way to provide this valuable resource to a person you may not even know who needs it. And don't forget there is always hope even when things seem the most helpless.